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27ed0ef36837ad77ef6b765c9987990cThe Freedom Report takes on the tough question of asking if men have no reproductive rights then why should they have any reproductive responsibilities?

An article featured on the website Thoughts On Liberty tackled the difficult issue of a man in Kansas who gave his girlfriend a drug that caused her to miscarry her child. The man was charged with first-degree murder, but if you’re pro-choice, wasn’t he really just taking the initiative and giving his girlfriend an unwanted abortion. It’s not really murder then is it? Different story if you’re pro life.

As for child support, the state of Virginia is pushing a bill that amounts to nothing more than extortion. Divorce lawyers have an incentive to put men in positions where they can’t pay, and encourage families to split up. Is the government causing the problem that it’s claiming to try to solve?

All that and more on the Freedom Report podcast!




About The Author

Austin Petersen

Austin Petersen is the founder of The Libertarian Republic, as well as the CEO of Stonegait LLC. Formerly an Associate Producer for Judge Andrew Napolitano's show "Freedom Watch", on the Fox Business Network. Austin was referred to by the Judge as "The right side of my brain". He built Judge Napolitano's social networks with over 700,000 fans and millions of clicks a month. Austin graduated from Missouri State University. He has written and produced award winning plays and videos, and previously worked for the Libertarian National Committee and the Atlas Economic Research Foundation.

  • Timothy Stuart

    Here is a thought experiment, a litmus test for the views of society… A woman is pro-life and decides to have a child that she cannot afford. She is well aware she cannot afford the child and decides that adoption would be best. At this point the child’s father steps in and says that he will take custody of the child. She should then be required to pay child support to him even though it was for financial reasons that she was putting the child up for adoption in the first place…. I have found that when the shoe is on the other foot and women are made to be financially responsible people react in disbelief and assume that it is wrong to make the woman do that. ALL of this, every last part of it is based on the idea that men are always the initiators to the act of sex. “he talked her in to it” “pay to play”… the women’s liberty movement fails to promote true equality in this case and still let’s society pin this on men.

    • Denise Dubus-Tellier

      Nail on the head. Humans in general want everything to be “fair”… until that means they don’t get what they want! People must have consequences. Women, if you can’t afford a baby, DON’T HAVE ONE! Don’t count on the baby daddy and.DEFINITELY DON’T COUNT ON ME, THE TAXPAYER! Only when these horrible breeders are held responsible will we have a chance of things changing. Women want “choice”? My body MY decision? Well grow up then and control your body.

      • Jackie Fiest

        So, when a man AND a woman have sex, and a child is made, the woman should not have the child if she can’t afford to take care of it, 100% on her own. That’s funny I thought it took two people to make a baby.

        • KevinJ

          If you believe in a woman’s personal sovereignty with regards to her body… i.e. she alone gets to decide if she will carry a child, and that she has a right to terminate the pregnancy or continue with it, regardless of what the man wants… then you have to believe she’s 100% responsible for everything she voluntarily does with her body. You can have your cake and eat it too… but only if you are a complete hypocrite.

          • Kingcent

            Kevin: “f you believe in a woman’s personal sovereignty with regards to her body… i.e. she alone gets to decide if she will carry a child,”
            A man has personal sovereignty over his sperm’. It’s his sperm and he decides where it ends up. Either inside of a potentially fertile womb or not. He controls that. If he decides to play Russian Roulette with his sperm, he can’t whine about what happens after he willingly gives his sperm into a woman’s womb.

          • KevinJ

            That doesn’t hold water. The law is clear in that the man has no rights with regard to the pregnancy. To be just…you must provide rights with responsibility and vice versa. If the woman is assigned the sole right to determine if the child lives or dies…she should accept full legal responsibilty for that decision.

          • Arab225

            That’s absurd. There was a case where a woman had sex with an unconscious man and he was forced to pay child support. The woman is the only one who is 100% responsible for bringing the child into the world. The man shouldn’t be held responsible for her decision. Point blank period!.

          • OVRG

            Unless the woman lies about not being able to get pregnant and or would get an abortion and or takes money for an abortion and then lies about that also then has a child and then goes after past child support? REALLY?? We had the talk before the child was ever in the picture and I have the letters and check proving so and I am getting screwed by her because of her lies. I never wanted a child and now I do and that child is now in a position that I feel is unfair because of her selfishness.

        • Redd_Melendez

          But only one to abort…isn’t that hypocritical?

        • James Synkgar

          jackie you really arent too bright.

          a woman has the right to NOT have sex, to take birth control and to get an abortion at anytime NO ONE is forcing her to have a child.

          • Kingcent

            James: “a woman has the right to NOT have sex, to take birth control and to get an abortion at anytime NO ONE is forcing her to have a child.”

            A man has the right to NOT have sex, and if he doesn’t have sex, then there will be no sperm that can fertilize an egg. Men have this right BEFORE sex, men and only men have sole control over where their sperm lands. Nobody ties a man down and forces him to ejaculate his sperm inside of a woman. The men make this choice. Many men want to have bareback sex because it feels better, they willingly take the risk then whine later when a baby is coming. Every man screwing knows how a baby gets made. Don’t want a baby then do your part and keep your sperm to yourself.

          • Arab225

            Like I said, a woman raped a man and he was still held responsible for her decision. A woman’s body should be 100% her responsibility. Even if a man has sex with a woman, it’s still her choice to gestate the fetus for 9 months. She even contributes more DNA to the fetus than the man. SHE should be the only responsible for the child that her body produced.

          • OVRG

            Unless the woman lies and says she likes it only that way also and lies about getting an abortion and then goes after you for past child support. Along with lying and saying that she could never get pregnant and hasn’t had a period in years. Even tells my parents that after the child is born. Also stated that she would never go for child support to my parents that it was her decision to keep the child.

      • Kingcent

        “Women want “choice”? My body MY decision? Well grow up then and control your body.”
        Men have the choice too, in fact they have many choices BEFORE the sex act on whether or not they become fathers. Not all sex =’s a baby 9 months later.There is a such thing as responsible sex. The window of time for a man is before sex, not after. A man before sex can
        1. Abstain from sex
        2. Use a condom
        Nobody forces a man to ejaculate ‘his sperm’ inside of a potentially fertile womb’. He makes that choice. He has ultimate control over where his sperm goes independent of that woman.

        • Arab225

          Oh please, to hell with your fallacious arguments. You’re so hung up on men having sex with women because you desire to control men’s sexual lives. The fact is, women have admitted to impregnating themselves from used condoms and drugging men and having sex with them. Even if a man willingly has sex with a woman it’s still her decision to give birth to the child. What right should the child have to ask for support from someone who had no say in it being here?. If the woman is unmarried, she should be the only one responsible for the resulting child.

      • hank

        This is about the most on point statement I’ve seen.

    • weRfromthegov’t&weRhere2help

      And what about the guy who’s pregnant girlfriend wants to have an abortion but HE wants the baby? That is his child too yet he has zero right to it. That is a moral double standard if ever there was one.

      • Brett D.

        I’ve had this same discussion with people in the past. And that is the flaw with the system: men are held responsible for financial support if the woman brings it to term, yet have ZERO say in if his child lives should the mother want to abort.

        I’m not 100% against child support. I just think it needs to be reworked. For instance, the parent receiving the support should have to provide receipts/documentation showing WHERE they spent that income on the child.

        Some people would argue “but the parent IS supporting a child if that money is spent on rent/utilities/food for everyone, etc.”

        My response is: if you can’t provide food and shelter to your child, then you shouldn’t have custody of it.

        Btw… my father was ordered to pay a paltry 100.00 a month for my sister and I. He rarely paid anything, in fact, my mother often gave him money so that he could take us to do things during his weekend visitation.

        I am very supportive of women and realize that a lot of guys are just dicks and skip out on the fatherhood part. However, if you take the time to get educated and become financially stable, you’ll find that the issue of not being able to afford your child is easily dealt with. It’s called “keep it in your pants until you are ABLE to support your kid.”

        • KevinJ

          “My response is: if you can’t provide food and shelter to your child, then you shouldn’t have custody of it.” Bravo. Anyone that wants custody of a child, should first be able to provide food, shelter, transportation, healthcare, etc. for themselves. If they are capable of that and gain custody, expenses above and beyond what it would take to support themselves are fair game for child support.

        • Redd_Melendez

          Doesn’t that apply to the woman keeping her legs crossed too?

      • fliteking

        In AmeriKa only women are fit to play god.

      • James Synkgar

        and how often is that an issue? a woman always has the right to give up her child for adoption, a man has no such right.

    • Hap Brindle

      Very good remarks. It’s about time that we get a chance to reform the child support Gestapo.

      • picnicfun

        Child support gestapo. Sounds like you owe more than your fair share.

        • Jeffrey Oviatt

          California adds 50% interest onto owed child support. its big business for these crooks

    • Dustin

      You’re absolutely right. Society seems to view sex as something that is done to a woman, not something that she does.

      • KevinJ

        Agreed. With the exception of rape…the woman is 100% the gatekeeper of sex. Period. End of story. Should a man act responsibly with regards to contraception? Absolutely. But the current situation where it seems the courts and/or society wants to balance the woman’s physical consequences of a pregnancy by disproportionate financial consequences for the man, is not logical or just. Women have access to every form of contraception, and have intimate knowledge of what they are using that a man simply can’t be aware of to the same extent.

        • Jackie Fiest

          Why not? If you know that your semen could possibly cause a woman to get pregnant and thusly locking you into 18 years of child support, I’d think you’d want to know as many ways to keep things under control as possible. Look online, research..pick up a pamphlet. Unless a woman rapes you and gets pregnant you are just as responsible.

          • KevinJ

            Because the man has no idea what she’s taking/using, if she’s doing it properly, if she’s being honest with him, if she’s incompetent, absent minded, etc. etc. I agree that men should be VERY concerned about getting a woman pregnant… but in the end, the woman is the final gatekeeper of sex and only she knows for sure she’s taken every precaution and done so properly. The man is responsible… but logic does not dictate “equal” responsibility, without equal rights to making decisions about the pregnancy or child, and today… that’s just not the case.

          • Agent9999

            She is only the gatekeeper of her gamete (egg). He is the gatekeeper of his gamete (sperm). How about they each control their own gametes and their own bodies and share responsibility?

          • KevinJ

            That’s an excellent idea. And they can each have equal say in the pregnancy, equal say in keeping the baby, and equal custody and equal financial responsibility…oh wait, thats not how it works.

          • Agent9999

            I said “their own bodies”, so pregnancy would not pertain to him.

          • KevinJ

            So she has greater rights with regards to the pregnancy…but you insist on equal responsibilty … though not necessarily equal rights … with regard to the child.

          • Agent9999

            huh? I’m not sure what you are getting at. According to everything I have said they would both have the same rights towards any child.

            I will make a distinction. You are looking to “equalize,” and I am going for “treating the same” by taking the same social expectations and same legal policies and applying them the same to both genders.

            The only thing you seem to be interested in “equalizing” is the number of choices after conception (each gender getting “one”). This is a very narrow outlook, and you would have to justify why this is the only aspect that should be equalized, when there are so many other aspects like effort, opportunity for reproduction, finality of decision and so on. Certainly you can see that signing a piece of paper is not equal to having an actual abortion when you consider all aspects of abortion. Also, this does not quite limit the man to just one
            choice after conception, if the child is born he can always change his mind – so his choice is never final.

            The biological imbalances are subjective when it comes to placing value on them, so a system of determining fairness based on”equalizing” is not practical. “treating the same” is both practical and fair. And limiting expectations to only pertain to one’s own body is also practical. There is no acceptable situation where one person can demand equality and “equal number of choices” because someone can do something with their body that another person can’t do. I cant play professional football, so I will never have the choice to
            sign a big NFL contract, I can’t demand equality and say where’s my choice?

            BTW, I am very supportive of solutions that would stop or minimize child support as long as children are cared for, but I don’t support paper abortion for men.

          • KevinJ

            The issue is hardly as confusing as you make it out to be. The man can not make a decision that will affect even 9 months of a woman’s life, yet the woman can make a decision that will affect 18 years or more of the man’s. You consider that “just”.

            You, and the law, think a woman is 100% entitled to make all decisions about her body, even up to and superceding any right to exist by the fetus and in complete disregard for the wishes of the man. But at the same time you place a claim of rights on the body of the man…his arms, his legs, his brain are what he uses to make a living.

            Pro- choice for the woman, NO choice for the man.

            Responsibility and rights need to be in conjunction with each other. As it is now, women have the legal right to make all the decisions around a pregnancy…but not all responsibilty.

            Only in bizzaro world is that a just arrangement.

          • Agent9999

            Oh, I agree it shouldn’t be confusing. Keep it simple: Each person responsible for their own bodies. Each person take their own risks and people take care of their own kids! It gets confusing when people like you try and equalize “unjust” situations in biology. Quit doing that! Not everything in life has an equal outcome. It is not the job of the government to try and equalize biological dispositions.

            …And what about when a man does want to be a father, but no agreement was made prior to conception and the woman does not want to share the baby with him? Then you have to either acknowledge that your logic does not give him parental rights, since, according to your words, the woman has “100% responsibility” in making the baby (which would give her 100% of rights) or you have to abandon all your logic and come up with something else.

            I’ll quote you: “you place a claim of rights on the body of the man…his arms, his legs, his brain are what he uses to make a living…..Only in bizzaro world is that a just arrangement”

            Oh please, stop the dramatics. Yes, society expects parents to work at taking care of their kids. Only in a lazy-ass-idiot world would it not be an expectation.

            BTW, you have falsely characterized me as believing a woman should be entitled to supercede any right to exist by the fetus. Remember I am the one here that limits expectations and control to one’s own body. You are the one trying to control other people’s bodies by insisting the women abort so the man doesn’t have to face the work of caring for his child.

          • Kingcent

            Kevin: “You, and the law, think a woman is 100% entitled to make all decisions about her body, even up to and superceding any right to exist by the fetus and in complete disregard for the wishes of the man. ”

            Kevin, the bottom line is this. You don’t get a say so over what happens to your sperm after you willingly give it to a woman. Your window of choice is before sex not after.

            You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to not have any responsibility for protecting your own sperm, you want to leave it all up to the woman, (playing Russian Roulette with your sperm), then whine about equality when 9 months later a baby is born. Meanwhile you would have done all that you can to make a baby.

            Any man screwing knows how a baby gets made. Bottom line, if you Kevin, don’t want a baby, the time to take that precaution is BEFORE you make the choice to lay down and have bareback sex and ejaculate your sperm inside of a potential fertile womb.

            Once you have willingly ejaculated your sperm inside of her womb, you forfeit any right to have any ‘equal say so over what happens to that sperm because it is now ‘her sperm’ to do with what she pleases. If that sperm meets with an egg and she gets pregnant and has a child, then you are on the hook for fatherhood and child support. If that sperm does not meet with an egg, for whatever reason, and a child doesn’t happen then you are not. But you and only you control what happens to your sperm.

          • Arab225

            No you are wrong. Women are legally allowed to abdicate their legal responsibilities after the child is born; it’s called safe-haven laws. Women bring children into the world not men. The idea that fatherhood starts at ejaculation is ridiculous. Men should be legally entitled to the same opportunities women have to give up their parental rights.

          • Arab225

            Women have raped men and they were still forced to pay life-style based “child” support. Sorry but your argument doesn’t hold water.

          • Kingcent

            Kevin:” The man is responsible… but logic does not dictate “equal” responsibility, without equal rights to making decisions about the pregnancy or child, and today… that’s just not the case”

            Again, passing the buck. Kevin if you’re not man enough to control your own sperm then you don’t need to be having sex. You don’t need to know what a woman is doing with her BC, all you need to know is what you are doing and that it is YOUR sole responsibility to keep your sperm to yourself if you don’t want to make a baby you aren’t ready for.

          • Arab225

            Kingcent: women haven taken men’s sperm without their permission and impregnated themselves. Again, your argument is a fallacious one. Abortion is legal therefore a man shouldn’t be forced to finance a woman’s choice. Remember, it’s the woman’s body that brings the child into the world.

          • Brett D.

            What he means by “gatekeeper” is that he cannot force a woman to have sex. Therefore, the woman has the ultimate power to make the decision to have sex without a condom, without contraception, etc. In other words, sure, the man should be partially responsible should he get a woman pregnant. The issue is, in my mind, a woman CHOOSING to have sex without contraception, yet demanding financial support because she can’t support the child herself (or in most cases, simply believes the father “should” pay something).

            The woman wasn’t forced and therefore made the conscious decision to take the risk.

            And to top that off, the man has zero say in what happens to that child/fetus before it is born! If a woman wants an abortion, he can’t prevent it. If she wants the child, he MUST pay support.

            It is a sick double standard. A guy can get convicted of first-degree murder for inducing an abortion by giving his pregnant girlfriend a drug that does so, yet the mother can have an abortion and it’s completely legal?

            The system is whack. And this is coming from someone who had father that didn’t pay shit, didn’t do shit, and sure as hell wasn’t a good father. My mom and step-father were on foods stamps and THEY supported my sister and I.

            If child support must be paid, I believe the parent that receives it should have to provide receipts/documentation as to how that money is going directly toward the child (whether that be clothing, food, toys, etc.).

          • gabriel314

            A woman can’t (generally) force a man to have sex either.

          • Arab225

            Women have raped men and forced them to pay child support. I think it’s time you woke up!

          • Kingcent

            Brett: “Therefore, the woman has the ultimate power to make the decision to have sex without a condom, without contraception, etc.”

            WRONG! Men here are such big whiny babies. You want to have irresponsible sex, and turn around and blame women for the outcome. You act as though you have no control over what happens during sex, as if you have no choice. Are you men really that weak when you get close to a woman’s P&&Y that it renders you incapable of having responsible sex?

            A woman decides if she wants to have sex with you or not, yes, but YOU decide if you want to wear a condom or not. Not the woman. If a woman says, ‘yes I’ll have sex with you but only if you have bareback sex with me, and you are stupid enough to comply, then you willingly take the risk of getting her pregnant. That woman isn’t forcing you to have bareback sex with her, you are doing that because you made the choice to do it. You have the ultimate power to have sex with or without a condom. Not the woman. Maybe if men quit leaving the responsibility of contraception solely on the woman, and took responsibility for their own sperm, then they wouldn’t have to whine about child support and unwanted babies.

          • Arab225

            Kingcent- NO! The woman should Be the only one responsible for her body and whatever comes out of it. They are the ones who bring children into the world not men. Child support should only be for married men who later divorce. Other than that, the man should be considered the equivalent of a sperm donor under the law.

          • Swivelgames

            The difference is that she has a way out of the situation and can terminate the pregnancy, thus relinquishing all responsibility. The man does not have the same right. He doesn’t have a say in whether or not the child is brought to term. That decision is HER responsibility. Yet, If she makes the decision to bring it to term, the father is responsible regardless of whether or not he wants to be. If the woman doesn’t want to be responsible for a child, she has the convenience of an abortion to avoid an inconvenient change of course for her life.

          • Agent9999

            There is nothing unfair about expecting both genders to be responsible for their own gametes (sperm and egg) Each has from the time they anticipate sex to the time the gamete is out of their control. Men have a shorter time compared to women. If neither of them protect their gametes, they are jointly responsible. Neither should make choices that the other person is obligated to carry out by means of a medical procedure. This would be contradictory to all medical ethics and contrary to how abortion rights were formed. Both mother and father should have equal rights and responsibilities to their children.

          • Christopher Michael Moore

            In addition. Women are allowed to drop off their child to police stations, emergency rooms, hospitals, and fire houses and walk away, no questions asked, if she chooses she no longer wants to care for the baby. Total lack of responsibility for the child enforced by government on women. This was in response to those women who would dump their children in trash cans rather than abort or put up for adoption.

          • Redd_Melendez

            Then why doesn’t he have equal say in whether to terminate?

          • Christopher Michael Moore

            Well, in this country. Even if a woman rapes a man, which happens, he is held responsible to pay child support to the woman who raped him.

          • evil monkeys

            I know I’m being a stickler but in the USA a man cannot be raped by a woman. He can only be sexually assaulted. Rape requires penetration of an orifice and a woman has no genital to do this. She can poke him in the anus with a finger but thats just about it. I’m just stating what the law has concluded. I don’t nescessarily agree with it.

          • Christopher Michael Moore

            You are right in your observation of how unbalanced our laws are. It is a shame, and is used to promote the whole men are awful line from radical feminists.

          • Arab225

            No by that ver definition a woman can rape a man. By inserting a man’s penis int her orifice, she has initiated penetration without the man’s consent. This fits the definition of rape perfectly.

          • Arab225

            Why should men be held responsible for women’s decisions?. A man should be free to ejaculate anywhere he wants. It’s the woman’s body that creates the child. Therefore she is unilaterally responsible for the child being here. Mandatory child support needs to be abolished. Too many boys have been raped by adult female teachers and forced into financial servitude for 18 years. Her choice should equal her responsibility.

        • Kingcent

          Kevin: “Women have access to every form of contraception, and have intimate knowledge of what they are using that a man simply can’t be aware of to the same extent.”

          So what, you have sole access to your sperm and where it ends up. You have sole control over your sperm and where you choose to ejaculate it. It doesn’t matter how many forms of BC women have, it’s still YOUR SPERM, and your responsibility for where it lands. Responsible sex means you are the controller of your sperm independent of what a woman does. If you don’t want a woman to have control over offspring you don’t want to make, then keep your sperm out of her womb.Simple as that.

          • Arab225

            A woman’s body should be her responsibility, period!. That means if she creates a baby with her body, that child should be solely her responsibility. The only exception should be if the man willfully signs the birth certificate and accepts responsibility for the child.

      • Kingcent

        “Society seems to view sex as something that is done to a woman, not something that she does
        And men seem to view women as the gatekeepers of men’s sperm. Men want it both ways. The freedom to screw bareback without any consequences. Women are not responsible for your sperm. You are.

        • Arab225

          No my friend, you’re the only one who wants it both ways. Women have abortion, adoption without the fathers consent (even if married), and safe-haven laws relinquishing their responsibilities to the state. A man cannot bring a child into the world therefore he should not be held responsible for the mothers decision to give birth. If a man does not want the child, he shouldn’t be held responsible for it. A woman can’t drug a man and force him to pay child support. That’s abhorrent and crazy.

    • Guest

      man or women! if you sign away your parental rights you do not have to pay for that child. so your point in garbage! if she wanted to put the kid up for adoption and the father didn’t she would simply sign over her parental rights to him and he would be solely responsible for that child.

      • Joel Stoner

        signing away your parental rights does NOT remove responsibility of child support. If the court deems it in the best interest of the child the court will order you to pay child support. But it should.

      • Christopher Michael Moore

        A man in Kansas is being held liable for child support to children he fathered. He signed away his parental rights, but the court didn’t care. He was a sperm donor, so a lesbian couple could have children. When the lesbian couple split, the biological mother kept the kids, went to the state for welfare support, and the state went after the bio-father and left the non-bio mother alone. Again, he signed away his parental rights. But the state wanted his cash.

      • Timothy Stuart

        That actually isn’t true in all states. Signing away your rights only works that way if there is someone else willing to take up the financial burden of the child, otherwise, rights or not, you still have to pay.

    • ridicc

      That’s not a thought experiment, it’s wank bait and a strawman. A father can absolutely choose to take sole custody if he’d like and seek out child support from the woman. But good luck if your assumption is some lavish lifestyle where you’ll be dressing in nice suits and driving fancy cars with the extra income. If she’s already broke the courts will take a small percentage of her income, just like they do with men, and the father will have to make up for the difference.

      The REALITY of child support is most women having to make up more than half of what it takes to raise a child through work and/or government subsidies, because the average child support payment is that low, and then still have to find the money to take care of herself. Most women aren’t out getting their hair done on child support money and that is the clear bias that was presented here before I even bothered to listen to the podcast. Most women are struggling to hold down work of their own and then coming home to the 24/7 job of raising their children. Being up all night, putting the child’s needs before their own. The audacity of misogynists to see a full time mother getting her hair done and think she doesn’t deserve to treat herself once in a while when she is dedicating her entire life to raising your spawn.

      If I wasn’t more concerned about children being raised by men who sought their custody just to stick it to their mothers and then being disappointed when they realize just how little the average child support payment covered, I would laugh watching these misogynists struggle. Thinking they’re gonna be able to go out to fancy cocktail lounges on the “extra income” and being shocked when they realize they’re working with a deficit.

      You’re holding the exception up as the rule, it’s such a pathetic reach.

      • Christopher Michael Moore

        You held the exception up as the rule. Men around the country, despite trying, and in some cases being better parents, are not allowed by the courts to have custody. Women are awarded custody 80 to 90% of the time in this country. No, “A father can absolutely choose to take sole custody if he’d like and seek out child support from the woman.” It just doesn’t happen enough to even see that as a real possibility. The only men I have heard of getting custody in my jurisdiction that I have been made aware of is one cop. And this is from four sets of lawyers in two separate divorce cases.

        As soon as I saw the word misogynist in your post, I knew you have been poorly informed on the subject. You have been lied to. Please educate yourself. You sound as if you really care, and want things to be right.

        • James Synkgar

          I also like how the twerp said “spawn” as if it’s only the mans child. typical manhater here i can see.

      • James Synkgar

        ridicc sorry, but statistically, even when men challenge for custody courts give it to women 80 percent of the time, and additionally even fi the man gets custody he is very unlikely to receive child support. its not an equal game.

      • evil monkeys

        You seem to be pretty one sided on this. You come off as a human hater. We’re not looking for that here.This site isn’t looking to point fingers at a specific gender. Were not looking to “laugh watching these misogynists struggle”. We don’t claim people’s arguments to be ” wank bait and a strawman”. We don’t conclude rebuttals by calling the OP’s opinion a “pathetic reach.” Go to
        Etiquette school and come back after you let off some steam.

    • Kingcent

      “At this point the child’s father steps in and says that he will take custody of the child.”
      How often does this happen when the father steps in and willingly takes custody of the child she can’t afford. What are the stats that this happens the majority of the time? Child support laws were created in the first place because before they were in place, women and children had no recourse when fathers abandoned their families. They had to rely on charity/family or they were left destitute. So the few cases where men willingly step up and take custody of their kids are far less than those who don’t.

  • Michael Castrovinci

    As divorced father who gets child support (sometimes) from my ex I’m in a bit of a different situation that most divorced fathers. I basically take the money she gives me and put it in an account for things that he might need, shoes, clothes, equipment, lessons…what ever it may be.
    The idea that she would be paying me more than what the child would need is insane. If she did I’d have less incentive to go get my own job (or in this case start my own company). Chris Rock said it best…..
    If I go to a restaurant and I eat a meal and then I leave, they don’t owe me a steak.
    Being a single parent is a workable situation. Maybe having children with someone your not prepared to go the distance with should be considered.
    No one should be exempt from supporting their children
    No one should be exempt from having reproductive rights.
    It’s not just your baby, it’s our baby.
    I’m not asking you to support my life after we part ways
    I’m not going to support your life after we part ways
    I’m going to support my child regardless.
    A law for support of the child should not be based upon the sex of the individual. It should stipulate a support structure as a baseline, so that no child falls below it in terms of support.
    Support covers: Food, shelter (their portion of it), Clothing, child care (day care)
    Does not cover: the parent going out, alcohol, upgrades to a vehicle, vacations, anything that one parent does with their child that the other isn’t a part of.
    Yeah it’s very vague but I’m not trying to write a law here.
    Parents should not pay for their ex’s to live, they pay for the child.
    No job? well you better be getting or making one other wise the other parent (if other parent has a job) is looking like a better option.

    • firstofthefallen

      In Colorado, if one parent doesn’t have a job then child support is still based off the premise that they are still capable of a full time job at minimum wage. Therefore if a person is unemployed it has less impact of how much the other pays. Maybe other states don’t calculate support in that manner.

  • firstofthefallen

    I can only speak to my own situation but I would think that it is similar to many others. I have been divorced and remarried, as has been my wife. We both have children from our previous marriages. I pay child support to my ex wife and she receives child support from her ex husband. I can tell you for certain that the money I pay to my ex is in now way enough to live on. She still has to work. The money she gets from me is merely supplemental. The money that my wife receives from her ex is also not enough for her to survive without having to work if she were living on her own. I do understand that when lawyers and strong emotions get involved then one parent can be put in the position of being severely taken advantage of and it is usually the father but your two cutesy little ecards accompanying this article lead people to believe that most single mothers who receive child support are living a good life from it or spending that money on things for themselves instead of child related expenses.

    • Jon Richards

      While I see what you are saying, my example contradicts this to some point. As soon as my ex-wife was granted child support, she went out and bought a new car that she couldn’t afford before. That struck me as wrong. She should have put some of that money into some kind of savings account for our daughter.

      • firstofthefallen

        Luckily my ex wife is a giving and supportive mother to our child but when I first began paying support to my ex I did feel that I had a right to kind of tell her what she should be spending it on. It took a while before I realized that once she had the money in her possession then it was no longer mine and that I also had no right to tell her what to do with it. I am in no position to dictate another persons spending. Although I didn’t necessarily agree with some of what I perceived I could still tell that my son was being taken care of.

        • Dustin

          Nonsense. Even though the law doesn’t agree, you did have every right to at least make suggestions as to what the money should be spent on. Even though the law doesn’t agree, that is your child’s money, not your ex’s. If your child ever came to you asking for bare necessities, like food or shoes, then your ex failed to use the child support correctly and efficiently.

          • firstofthefallen

            I’ve got to disagree. The money is not the child’s. My current wife and I run into that thinking with her ex. He attempts to dictate our expenses by saying the exact same thing. As long as it’s spent responsibly on any sort of day to day expenses required to operate a household then it is a valid expense, whether it’s groceries, utilities, or toothpaste. That’s what some people don’t understand about child support. That’s exactly what it is, support in raising a child. Not for spending it directly for the child and nothing else.

          • KevinJ

            That’s a pretty jacked up way of looking at it. The ability to provide completely for yourself should be a prerequisite for custody, and child support should be decided upon what the added expenses are for taking on custody of the child. Then that dollar amount should go to those expenses, and those expenses alone. I don’t see how you can call anything else “just” or “fair”.

          • firstofthefallen

            So I’m going out on a limb to assume that you haven’t been in the situation of paying child support. I’m the state of CO the only things taken into consideration when calculating child support is each parents income, childcare expenses if the kid needs daycare or babysitting, healthcare and living expenses such as housing and utilities. These things in addition to parenting time determine which parent pays how much. Parenting time is determined by overnight stays. If one parent doesn’t work then the state calculates their “potential income” by assuming they can get a full time job at minimum wage. That way one parent isn’t paying to support the other. I don’t know about other states but where I’m at extracurricular activities or anything beyond the expenses of a normal household are not considered when calculating support. Those things are up to the parents individually or possibly by some form of agreement between themselves. The state doesn’t get involved in who pays to send the kid to ballet lessons.

          • seven7399

            Not entirely true in CO. Last month I was told that I could earn more than I do so now I have to pay more than the normal calculation. I could stop being a stay home dad with a part time job so the judge assumed a 25% wage increase with an assumption of working 40 hours a week when I only work about 15. OK so support will probably double. No problem because I want to pay for the 6 year old son that I just found out was mine, including the 20k they tacked on for arrears. But no, judge didn’t double my support order, he increased it over 400%. The ex could go out and get a good job too but she isn’t being held responsible for anything but 200$ a month. There’s no fairness in CO.

          • firstofthefallen

            Support is for the well being of the child. If my ex needs to use the support money to pay the electricity or the heat or rent or gasoline or car insurance for anything else needed for where my child lives for part of the time then I’m good with that.

      • KellyCraig

        After I got custody of my daughter, I didn’t not ask for support. It had nothing to do with my income, which was low. Rather, it had everything to do with that I took the responsibility of raising her with custody.
        ________________
        Support continues even when the other parent has custody, so an absent parent has to support two households, plus deal with the increased support burden when the child/children are with him/her.
        ________________
        Generally, a woman can remarry and enjoy significant income increase. Since the new mate is not a party to the original action, his income cannot be considered in support calculations.

        On the other hand, if guys marry, it often happens the man must support the new mate, so remarriage is a burden on, rather than an improvement on his financial situation.

        I once calculated what it would take to maintain my income level at what it would have been had a court not performed its socialist magic on me. Since each income increase was considered a significant change in circu8msatnce and a basis to be drug back to court for a support increase, it would have taken four or five more jobs to get back to where I started.
        ________________
        Either the parents are equal or they aren’t. If they aren’t, then women need to go back to the kitchen, kick off their shoes……..

    • James Synkgar

      because many live bad lives, but still waste the money on crap.

      the fact is, many women are not fit mothers and make poor choices ( like sleeping with the man i guess).

  • MJ

    THE MAN DOES HAVE REPRODUCTIVE CHOICES, IT’S CALLED BIRTH CONTROL. It takes two to make a baby. When having unprotected sex, the man by default agreeing to help raise an offspring if one is to come of it. If he forfeits that right, THEN he accepts the consequences. Guys are not being forced to have sex, they have the choice to wrap it or ensure the girl is taking the proper precautions. The man was not forced to create the child, he was being irresponsible & should help pay for the child.

    The reason the mother can choose to keep the baby or not is because it’s her body that has to change, her life has to change, the man just has to shell out money for the unwanted child. She, no matter the decision, will live with that decision probably the rest of her life. The man does not have to be pregnant, does not have to take off work, does not have to go through the pain. As a pregnant lady, if you ask my husband how hard pregnancy is, he’s like “Oh it’s fine, it’s easy.” I can’t lift, I can’t do my job anymore, I can barely pick up the laundry anymore, I have constant aches & pains, not to mention the eventual labor ordeal. My whole life is changing & I choose it, he choose it. He was on the line the minute he decided to quit using birth control and he agrees.

    There is no entrapment, there is no guy that does not know that unprotected sex could equal a child. If the guy is willing to ASSAULT the woman who got “accidentally” pregnant (there’s no such thing), then he should of thought about birth control before he did the deed. (I do not believe the man should be charged with murder, but assault equal to that of rape. He took away her choice because he made BAD CHOICES. There is no do overs when you are dealing with unprotected sex. Sometimes, it only takes once kind of like playing Russian roulette…there’s no backsies.)

    And talk about double standards, the woman is responsible for raising the child, but the guy gets to say “Adios, it was fun.” Why would a guy ever bother with condoms/birth control if he never had to pay for his mistakes? Why should it be only up to the girl to worry about birth control?

    All that being said, I think the child support system seems grossly corrupt. The money should go to the child not the mother or father. Tanning, getting her hair & nails done, dressing in fancy clothes, etc, is not helping the child. The money is for the CHILD. We need to reform the child support system. Also, if a woman lies about birth control to the man, the man should not be libel for an unwanted child. How you would prove that, I don’t know, but that’s what I think.

    Another thing I would love to see implemented is more responsibility on some women’s parts. I believe that for an abortion to take place, both parties have to agree on it. Either the man take full responsibility for the child or he accepts the woman’s decision for abortion. Now, how much the woman should pay in child support would be up for debate considering her life will be grossly affected if she has the child & gives it to the partner. Again, she has to carry it for 9 months, go through LOTS of pain, & (I’ve actually personally heard of this) possibly lose her job, scholarship, grant, etc. All of this needs to be accounted for when figuring her child support. How, I don’t know, but that is what’s fair? And again, and I can’t stress this part enough, she had a choice & for her if she doesn’t want the child, it was a BAD CHOICE. But, she MADE her choice, when she decided to have unprotected sex. It really is that BLACK & WHITE. Having unprotected sex is EVERYONE’S CHOICE, but I feel EVERYONE must accept the consequences.

    This little rant is not about being pro-choice or pro-life. I’m pro-choice and a Libertarian, but as stated, you are CHOOSING to have unprotected sex, period. And if both parties agree abortion is right for them (and it’s done in the first trimester) then they have the choice to abort. If one wants to keep it, then I say you lost your right to choose abortion when you had unprotected sex. This is concerning two willing partners. If someone’s choice was taken away by another, then the offender has no say & must pay or accept full responsibility for child depending on who’s the offender. I would really like to see people who risk having unwanted children really be forced to own up to their responsibilities, both men & women.

    Just a pro-choice Libertarian pregnant woman’s opinion.

    • Guest

      It seems to me that you’re saying that a woman has every right to act as irresponsible as she wants, have all the unprotected sex and abortions that she wants, while a man must always abide by the decisions of the female, one way or the other.

      So a woman could trick a man into getting pregnant by faking the taking of birth control or poking holes in condoms and a man would have absolutely zero recourse. Is that what you’re saying?

      • juan granados

        That’s what she is saying.

      • Seamus Cameron

        “So a woman could trick a man into getting pregnant by faking the taking of birth control or poking holes in condoms and a man would have absolutely zero recourse. Is that what you’re saying?”

        Frequently that is happening.

    • Dustin

      The rights of the father transcend the mother’s body. Rights are ideas, not things that can be touched. To say that a woman retains sole ownership of the right to decide, often on behalf of and in spite of the person she consentually entered into an unwritten but understood contract with, just because it’s her body is a superficial and profane way to look at this. By the same reasoning, if I was starving and attacked your mother for the trail mix she was carrying, and that event unfortunately resulted in her death, that isn’t murder – that’s survival.

    • Daniel Gill

      Didn’t listen to the podcast, did you?

      You typed several paragraphs and first I’d like to start by suggesting that if you are going to go into such a lengthy post that you use correct spelling and grammar; you are more likely to be taken seriously if you do. There is a difference between choose (present tense) and chose (past tense). Could’ve is the abbreviation of could have, it may sound like could of, but it is not.

      Now, I took a few of your paragraphs above and changed the gender. Where I had to add words or correct spelling/grammar, I placed the changes in brackets. Look at just how easy it is to change your statement to make it work against you.

      ‘THE WOMAN DOES HAVE REPRODUCTIVE CHOICES, IT’S CALLED BIRTH CONTROL. It takes two to make a baby. When having unprotected sex, the woman [is] by default agreeing to help raise an offspring if one is to come of it. If she forfeits that right, THEN she accepts the consequences. Women are not being forced to have sex, they have the choice to [ensure he] wrap[s] it or [that she] is taking the proper precautions. The woman was not forced to create the child, she was being irresponsible & should help pay for the child.

      There is no entrapment, there is no woman that does not know that unprotected sex could equal a child. If the woman is willing to ASSAULT the man who “accidentally” got her pregnant (there’s no such thing), then she should [have] thought about birth control before she did the deed. (I do not believe the woman should be charged with murder, but assault equal to that of rape. She took away his choice because she made BAD CHOICES. There [are] no do overs when you are dealing with unprotected sex. Sometimes, it only takes [one time;] kind of like playing Russian roulette…there [are] no backsies.)

      And talk about double standards, the man is responsible for [supporting] the child, but the woman gets to say “Adios, it was fun,” [and have an abortion.] Why would a woman ever bother with condoms/birth control if she never had to pay for her mistakes? Why should it be only up to the guy to worry about birth control?’

      Please, listen to the actual podcast as it addresses nearly everything you bring up.

      • MJ

        Sorry guys the post was so long, too long for many of you to
        make it to end, obviously. I did state that I believe that if a man is lied to about birth control, he is off the hook. I also talked about how I believe that the rules should be stricter on my sex about unwanted children. I stated that both parties should have to agree for an abortion to take place. If the child is wanted by either partner, then both have to share in the responsibility,
        either by carrying it or by financial means. I believe the abortion argument gets used as birth control too much, I believe the child support system is grossly misused by people, & I think both systems should be fixed. I also do not think that a man being exempt from paying is the solution to the problem. I think that just leads to more irresponsible behavior. Also, I did listen to the podcast, that’s what irritated me. He kept repeating “Men do not have reproductive choices.” My point was that yes men do have reproductive choices, birth control. It’s their own faults if they
        don’t use it.

    • seven7399

      You aren’t a libertarian if you believe the state should be using violence to force someone to do something. Simple as that.

  • Sassan

    So libertarians are now anti-women? Those memes are blatantly sexist and misogynist.

    • Markrod420

      And our current system of handling child disputes is blatantly sexist in the opposite direction. Dont sit there and cry sexism while supporting a sexist system… Thats called hypocrisy.

    • dinkster

      I support equality under law. What do you support?

  • Seamus Cameron

    There can be little argument that the Child support system in this country is broken and in need of systemic reform.

    I paid support for years. Yet, I was forced to sit by an watch my child live in squalor, go hungry and be physically, emotionally and educationally abused. You see, the system automatically gives women a pass. It took me 5 years and in excess of $80,000 in legal fees and expenses to eventually get my case before a judge that could see through the lies of the Ex and the ineptitude of Child Protective services.

    6 years now I’ve had sole custody of my daughter. In that 6 years her mother has never paid the paltry $30.00 a month in support she was ordered to pay (on the same income that I was required to pay over $500.00 a month). Our “Friend of the Court” takes no action against her (yet they sent armed officers to arrest me for an unpaid administrative fee)(That I later proved in court had been paid). In the time my daughter has lived with me she has never gone to bed hungry, has never missed school and is told many times a day that she is loved.

    My ex has not had any contact with our daughter since the day I was given custody of the girl. No birthday cards, no gifts, no letters, no phone calls. All by her choice, not mine or the child’s.

    The system is biased against fathers and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. There are lots of loving nurturing fathers that are being excluded from their children’s lives and literally forced into poverty to support their ex, not the children.

    • Ted Gilbertson

      Who paid the 80000 in legal fee’s? If you had 80k to spend on legal fees you had money to feed your child.

      • Seamus Cameron

        Clearly Ted you didn’t read where I state that I was paying. The Mom wasn’t spending the money to care for the child. And the Money came out of my retirement fund and loans.

        • Ted Gilbertson

          I apologize, I miss read it.

          • Seamus Cameron

            No problem Ted.

        • William Rogers

          Self-righteous IGNORANT folks like Ted fuel the “deadbeat dads” Tyranny. Wait till the bankrupt Government comes to fleece those fools for one reason or another. Ted, read details, wake-up!!!! ODDLY, OUR SO-CALLED LEADERS ARE “DEADBEATS”…US DEBT IS…17 Trillion and climbing. SIMPLY, do the math (17 trillion).

    • Jeffrey Oviatt

      my son and daughters mother moved out of state and changed her number I cant even find them, but I still have to pay 600 per month. the county wont give me her address and I cant afford an attorney. they say visitation and support are separate and they have no obligation to give that information. this country if screwed

      • Seamus Cameron

        You need to get that opinion before a judge. I’m sure he’ll tell them otherwise.

      • Lisa Strauss

        OMG that’s terrible!!!

      • fliteking

        Move to Florida, they will readily modify court orders from other states. If you aren’t seeing the kids go enjoy the sun and get your life back.

  • Tboswell

    This is a small excerpt of a response I wrote to a woman who wrote “Honestly as a man you don’t get to make that decision until you can be pregnant and birth a baby!” – about abortion – which is a whole other topic, but I think this part is very relevant to this discussion:

    First of all, sex, in most cases of pregnancy, is a mutually consensual act – meaning, there are two people involved in the decision. For instance, if you decided to have the child and your male partner disagreed with your decision, BY LAW that man IS MADE FULLY RESPONSIBLE for that child and held accountable for his half of the deed through child-support and ordered to pay for that child, hounded and hunted down the rest of his life if he doesn’t.

    But that’s just not so for women. If they don’t want to be held accountable for their actions or responsible for a child they are carrying, they just make the simple statement that it’s their body, and therefore their decision. But this is nothing more than a clever Edward Bernays (look him up if you don’t know who he is) marketing tactic…

    You are a rational thinking human being, who entered into the mutually consensual act of allowing a man to place his penis into your vagina, knowing full well that just one sperm penetrating your egg is all it takes to induce pregnancy.

    We do all sorts of crazy things with our bodies, but you knew the risks just the same as the man in the case that you have the child and he disagreed (the shoe being on the other foot now). By having CONSENTUAL SEX you “waived” your INDIVIDUAL “rights” just the same as a skydiver jumping out of a plane. Before you jump, you sign a waiver that says in the event that something happens, you understand the risks and you will not hold the pilot or airline accountable. But then something happens, and you attorney up…it’s your backdoor out for holding yourself accountable for jumping out of that plane in the first place. You simply CAN’T conscionably have it both ways – either the man is not equally responsible (so support your own damn decision) or YOU ARE!

  • leann wilson

    I think the decision of who should pay child support depends on who ends the relationship , if a man walks out on his wife and kids he should pay period , but if your not married and the girl gets pregnant and chooses to keep the child and the man has no day them it’s on her , Noam has the right to end a pregnancy by illegal means ( slipping ) the girl a drug that could kill her who knows how her body could respond allergies heart problems or she could bleed to death , that guy had know idea how that girls body was going to respond to that pill .

  • wraiththirteen

    The system should automatically give full custody to the fathers. If the father is unwilling, unable or to abusive to be a dad, barring some major medical problems then he should be put in jail. Look at statistics of fatherless kids sometime.

    • KevinJ

      So putting fathers in jail, solves the fatherless child problem? How? Aren’t the children still fatherless when their fathers go to jail?

      • Guest

        Well, if Dad refuses, then Dad isn’t likely to be in the kid’s life anyway.

        • KevinJ

          I understand what he’s saying. It still doesn’t solve the problem. It only exacerbates it. The father can not EVER become involved personally or financially, by choice or by force, if he is incarcerated. And jailing him over it can put him in a position such that his life is altered to never be as capable a father as he could be. Uninvolved fathers is a huge problem, I agree. I just don’t see how jailing them does anything but make the problem worse.

          • Dustin

            Indeed you did understand, and I misunderstood you. Sorry for that.

          • wraiththirteen

            If they are in jail they are not making more babies that they are not taking care of. I know kids right now that have dads that intentionally got their mom pregnant then broke up and got another girl pregnant. Wont have anything to do with their kids. I live in the state of South Carolina, I am told the only way the state enforces child support is if the mom is on welfare.

          • KevinJ

            Based on that logic… why aren’t we jailing the mother as well? Wouldn’t that keep them from “making more babies” that they can’t or won’t take care of?

    • BOLIEVE

      You’re right. Statistics show that single dads are better than single moms.

    • gabriel314

      Hold on now–I never want my daughter to be fatherless, but my husband does NOT take care of her when he watches her. He sits at the computer and completely ignores her, and there are many fathers just like him. (He’s a work-in-progress, but certainly not a natural at being a parent.)

      You be careful what you ask for, because motherless children might just turn out even worse–but you won’t find out until it’s too late.

  • Kenya_Diggit

    The whole child support structure will change once gay marriage is nationally accepted. When a gay or lesbian couple go through divorce, and have children, how will they decide custody?

    The whole gender argument is out, No one will be able to claim that a mother is better suited to be with the child than the father. A smart lawyer will take that and apply it to straight couple divorces. The court can’t have it both ways. Either a male is just as capable to raise the child as a woman and the woman should be just as responsible for child support, or neither gay male parents can have sole custody…and that would never happen.

    So eventually, gender will have to be eliminated as a consideration for custody. The same would apply for alimony.

    • firstofthefallen

      That makes sense. I like that.

    • localman22

      While that sounds good, it is not realistic. Judges are people, not robots. They see this stuff all the time. They believe, based upon experience, that the woman will most often make the better parent because the woman has a stronger biological and social connection to the children. If one of the two parents is going to be irresponsible, it will be the man more than 50% of the time. Yes, there are lots of exceptions where the mother is irresponsible and the father is a great parent, but more often than not, the mother is the better residential parent. In a lot of cases, neither parent is any good. In a few cases, both parents are equally good. The determination of the primary residential parent is based upon the evidence presented, but it is very subjective — so most judges will have a presumption that the mother is the better parent unless there is evidence to show otherwise.

      The best solution to not having to pay child support is to (a) not have sex outside of marriage, and (b) make divorce harder. Divorce is too easy today — people need to learn to work at their marriage. But that’s a whole other topic.

  • BOLIEVE

    ‘Child support’ is the biggest scam perpetuated by big government in history. They boot the father out of the family but make him an indentured servitude to the woman.

    • Christopher Michael Moore

      I prefer the term “wage-slave”.

  • Matthew Reynolds

    Equality is a two way street. Many women seem to think they deserve the perks of being a woman and a man. There are things that really suck about being a dude that I would trade with a chick in a heartbeat.

  • Bret M Duff

    Tough one. As a father of six children (two different relationships) and who has paid child support – I can’t say my situation is unique – but certainly I have lived it. But in each case the mother and I agreed to have those children. Likewise I am the son of a single mom who had never got much support from my biological “deadbeat” father. So I’ve seen it from both sides.

    I think if you’re in a relationship (married or living together) and have agreed to have children – then child support should come into play when the relationship ends. As a man or woman – it is your responsibility to pay support.

    But in the case of a one night stand or a couple having casual unprotected sex. Should the woman gets pregnant – the woman has full control. If the woman wants to terminate the pregnancy, carry it to term or even put the child up for adoption – the man has little or nothing say about it. Its her choice – yet he is financially responsible if the woman decides to keep the child.

    So I think it’s a fair question – to ask that if the man has no say with regards to the pregnancy – then he should at least be given a chance to decide if he wants to be a part of that child’s life & pay child support. But if he opts not to support that child – then he gives up his parental rights forever..

    • Seamus Cameron

      A sort of ‘legal’ abortion?

      • Bret M Duff

        Agree or disagree – as mere males – assuming abortion is “legal” – the woman is the only one who can make that choice. A man can’t make a woman have an abortion – likewise he can’t make her carry the child to term either.

        BTW I have known a couple of men who actually wanted to have the child. But where crushed when the woman exercised her right to terminate the pregnancy.

        • Dustin

          I wrote this in response to a comment below; I’ll repost it here:

          The rights of the father transcend the mother’s body. Rights are ideas, not things that can be touched. To say that a woman retains sole ownership of the right to decide, often on behalf of and in spite of the person she consentually entered into an unwritten but understood contract with, just because it’s her body is a superficial and profane way to look at this. By the same reasoning, if I was starving and attacked your mother for the trail mix she was carrying, and that event unfortunately resulted in her death, that isn’t murder – that’s survival.

          • Bret M Duff

            Not saying I agree or disagree with your comment Dustin. I was only stating the current facts as they are.

            Morally – of course I think the father should have a say – but regardless of what happens with the abortion issue – I
            think that’s a sad fact that will never change.

          • Dustin

            Unfortunately, that’s what it’s looking like.

          • Michael W

            Dustin, that is an honestly disgusting point of view.

            Nowhere in rational discourse is the logic you laid out here applied. Sex is not by itself considered a binding contract, unwritten or otherwise, and without their express consent, a person’s right to their own body supersedes any other considerations. This is a part of “life, liberty and property” (unless you believe that people don’t own their own bodies) and is reflected in our laws regarding medical procedures and organ donations.

            Besides that: the person delivering sperm makes a singular chemical contribution. The person carrying the child actually takes on the labor, the health risks, and the dedication of essential bodily functions and nutrients to bring a child to term. They have every right to choose whether or not to provide those things, regardless of how the pregnancy occurred.

            Your “by the same reasoning” seems to imply that the mother and the fetus are on equal footing as individual lives, which by definition a fetus is not. A closer analogy, though still flawed since it’s using your logic, would be:

            If you were homeless and starving, asking for money and food from passers-by, and you later died of exposure, would everyone who passed you be a murderer? Libertarians on the whole tend towards no, with the whole “no obligation to share wealth” bit. And if it’s that way with money, how much more so with essential bodily functions?

            The “rights” of a father derived from some implied, imaginary agreement do not in any conceivable way transcend the right of a potential mother to decide how her body is used. She has an equal right to say “no” to pregnancy as she does to sex, and she has no need to pick the same answer for both.

            Oh, and it’s “consensually.”

  • Ruben Torres

    I was lucky enough to work for a big company, when my ex-wife was pregnant for our 1st. We had ppl earning minimum wage to 6 figures. They all said the same thing, ” kids are expensive”. You see, nobody can ” afford” kids. They’re not items! They’re ppl. You can’t put a price on that. They don’t ask for much tho. The basic necessities and the instruction, so that they can be self sufficient. I’m divorced now. Child support is the best system we have in the event of a split, and I pay it. Somebody needs to instruct, feed and protect the children and the other needs to finance. It’s that simple.
    When u use words like afford, breed , choice… What ever u guys use. It is a vain attempt at dehumanizing reproduction and the continuation of our lives, our people, our names, our culture. It’s a way of making ppl seem less than ppl in ur own eyes. When u say it, it just shows what kinda animal u are!
    I wonder if ud feel the same about victims of natural disasters? I mean, let’s face it! It’s an act of god, maybe his doesn’t want them around! Negative. We’re going to help them, bcuz they had no control over over the events that occurred. A civilized ppl will also help the children, bcuz they have no control over who their parents are (social standing, economic status, etc.)

    • Seamus Cameron

      Noting is more “Dehumanizing” than abortion.

      • Ruben Torres

        That may be so, but b4 abortion can be sold as an option, you would have to make that child seen less than human. Then you’re not killing a baby. You’re aborting a fetus.

    • Dustin

      That’s actually an excellent point, but I disagree that “child support is the best system we have in the event of a split”. A celebrity – I forget who – was recently ordered to pay $20,000 in child support monthly. That’s overboard, and child support amount should not be determined by income. Furthermore, when it comes to two rational people, child support isn’t necessary. For instance, when my parents split and my mother gained custody of myself and my siblings, my mother decided not to pursue child support. As it turned out, my father provided financial support just as he was ethically obligated to even without a court order. Far too often, child support is employed as a scam.

      • Ruben Torres

        It’s allot for us ! But for that child, to know his father is well off and he’s living in poverty… That may not sit well! The court is there bcuz two parties can’t agree on what’s in the child’s best interest. 20,000 may seem like a punishment, but what would we say about a father that chews the fataand leaves his kids with crumbs.

  • Lisa Strauss

    My son can not even survive after paying his child support, 30 years old
    and still renting a tiny little apartment, old car that barely runs
    living in poverty. While the ex owns a new home, nice vehicle,
    vacations at least twice a year has all the brand name fancy clothing
    gets her hair nails done regularly! He works his butt off all
    spring/summer/fall doing back breaking concrete work and is harassed by
    the State every in winter when he has no work, then they pull his
    drivers license which makes it impossible to work even if he did find a
    job that pays minimum wage which would not even make a dent in the
    amount of support he has to pay, because they will not lower it if he
    takes a loss of income, but if he gets a raise they will bump up the
    amount immediately and back date it too!! As a mother I am just sick to
    death of watching my son live in such a depressed state of mind, he
    loves his children and is there for them with all of his heart and soul,
    The children are being used by the Mother as a pawn what a truly sad
    thing. My son served this Country in the military and deserves better
    then this crap from our State/government, I have seen him become very
    depressed and I worry about him harming himself because he feels like
    there is no ends to his money issues that drag him down on a daily
    basis, this truly breaks my heart!!!! The State of Nebraska is a
    nightmare to deal with they are completely uncaring and do not give a
    care in the world about the fathers and their situation. I would Love
    any advice available because I am at a loss sadly.

    • Dustin

      Unfortunately, in our broken system, there are only two things that your son can hope for: 1) have the courts review his situation to and revise their order and hope they aren’t misandrists; and 2) appeal directly to the mother, make her understand the situation, and hope that she is a decent human being and terminates the court order for child support.

      • Lisa Strauss

        I agree the system is very broken and its destroying lives, We have tried the direct appeal to the ex, but that is not going to happen she is to money hungry and cant give it up! I have written letters and made phone calls to representatives in Nebraska and get no where, the laws and guild lines need to be reviewed and changes need to be made, but no one is willing to do it!!

    • Seamus Cameron

      I have been in the same situation. If I got a raise or changed jobs they would automatically raise my support. When I was laid off and asked for it to be lowered they’d refuse saying “Well, you can still get a job making the same amount”. Yet, when the ex got laid off they would then say, “She’s not able to find work right now so he needs to pay more”. Now that my ex is supposed to pay me she’s been able to get away without paying for 6 years with no loss of her drivers license and never once been arrested. When our support review (funny now that she has to pay they say they can only be done every three years) Hers was not raise (she’s only assessed $30.00 a month).

      My only advice is to hire a lawyer and take it to court. Your son will probably never get a fair review relying on the Case worker to do it.

      It really is a sickening situation to be in.

      • Lisa Strauss

        I know thats prob his only hope and I would love to be able to afford an attorney believe me 🙁 I find it terribly wrong to have to spend $1500 or more to hire an attorney!! We are a pay check to pay check family unfortunately and not able to come up with even a retainer.

        • Seamus Cameron

          Contact your local VA they have social workers there who may be able to help. See if they have ‘Veterans Justice Outreach coordinator’. They should.

    • gabriel314

      While I hope your son can improve his lot in life soon and think child support is wrong, having worked for the military should not mean that he gets breaks that others don’t.

  • librty4life

    The child support system here in TX needs a huge overhaul. It is always in favor of the woman. My husband has child from previous relationships and one of the mother’s recently filed for support of the child after 12 yrs, and not only got monthly support, but arrears going back 12yrs. Also, he has 2 other children that he is supporting but now one lives with us and the courts did not even take into consideration their welfare and support because he did not have them on a court ordered child support. Isn’t the point for the fathers to be responsible for their children without having to get the courts involved, but yet the court wont recognize the children? Ridiculous. .
    My thing is, why should a woman be able to come in years later and sue for child support because the child is now more expensive and they believe they are owed all this money? There should be a limitation set so that a man doesn’t end up paying years of back child support. I think if a woman does not file with in the 1st or 2nd year of child being born or the dissolution of the relationship, then there should not be any arrears unless the father gets behind on the support going forward.
    People need to take more responsibility for their actions. If you don’t want a child, don’t have sex or at least unprotected sex. Children are not a meal ticket.

  • KellyCraig

    First, support is best described as socialism on a small scale. That is, the money is taken from the father and given to the mother.

    My former, female landlord said it well a few decades back: “You men are such whiners. After all, it’s you who decide: if we will date, if we will sleep together, if a pregnancy will be allowed, if the baby will be kept, aborted or given up for adoption. If it’s kept, you’ll decide if you will be told about the pregnancy or birth, if you’ll be allowed to be an equal part of its life, or if you’ll be required to pay support, including education and other incidentals. Obviously, she was being facetious.

    If if the laws were altered to reflect the equality claimed by many women, the courts are riddled with agenda driven anti-male animators who would go on discriminating, unless their self made immunities were destroyed.

    Changing laws, of course, can go a long ways. However, many opportunities to start setting things right exist yet today.

    Most guys rely on attorneys. Unfortunately, even the ones who actually know family law will not apply laws that protect their clients rights, least their businesses suffer in all future cases. As such, each man must get pro active and start learning applicable laws and relative court rules.

    When victimized in a way which conflicts with court orders, most drag back to family court by way of an Order to Show Cause directing the offending spouse to appear and show cause why she should not be found in contempt, with associated penalties and actions required resultant of the finding. HOWEVER, such actions place them right back in the same [family] court that granted the other party power.

    A show cause action, certainly, is one option, but there are others too. Merely that you have a family court matter going does not preclude you from taking the matter of your injuries and damages to civil court. You may start a suit for damages against the other parent, Of course, this means having a record of the acts. While that can include the filings into the family court, it can also include emails, affidavits, testimony and so forth. In the civil court, you can seek discovery by way of Requests for Admissions and Production of Documents, Interrogatories. You can also use other government records, such as from CPS. Of course, merely filing these things does not get them into the record. They must be introduced, then moved into the record (which too few attorneys do, explaining why so many cases die on appeal, since the appeal is made on the record).

  • picnicfun

    This has nothing to do with child support.

  • Edwarda Alderete

    My ex always paid his child support even after I remarried and he refused to see the children. Now they are in their 20s and don’t have much of a “relationship” with him. It’s not always about the money, it’s also about the bond between parent and children.

    • gabriel314

      Now that’s the genuine tragedy of broken relationships. I hope that your ex will one day realize what a moron he was.

  • I’m seeing a very strong argument for men banking their sperm when they turn 18 and then getting a vasectomy. Then it’ll be impossible to impregnate a woman unless (theoretically) he trusts her and she’s asking for it. She can always turn on him later, of course, but at least he’d know what she really wanted up front.

  • Sherry

    My sister has been divorced for 5 years now, and has yet to see a total of $2000 dollars of the 10,000 he owes and it’s growing. My sister has to take two jobs just to make ends meet while he, takes care of other children that are not even his. He claims, even after the court proveD him wrong, that his daughter isn’t his. While he goes and gets tattoo’s and motor cycles for him and his ‘love interest’ and other costly items, his daughter goes hungry. He tells people that he has tried to talk to her, but yet when she tries to call him, he never answers the phone or even gets back to her. I sometimes have to send money for them to eat or pay a bill. She makes too much money to get aid.. And the State of Missouri is no help to her or her daughter. He quits his jobs just to keep from paying his child support. The last time she got paid was when they took his drivers license until he paid 6 months in back child support which was just barely $800.. He bought them a package of Bologna and a loaf of bread and he told them that will have to last them two weeks.. She had to give up their new car they bought before the divorce, to a barley drivable one while he bought himself a new truck. While I think at times the Law is screwy and not male friendly,but the law at times isn’t a friend to those women who do right by the law, either. There is hardship on both parts. I don’t agree with women who use their children for monetary gain while denying the right for the father to see his kids. I have no respect for them at all. Those are the ones that should pay, and not the ones who are hurt by the father and the system that is supposed to help them.

    • gabriel314

      There were no signs that he was a scumbag before your sister decided to reproduce with him?

  • Woodaddy3

    My wife quit working for 5 years and then found a boyfriend and moved away to California . I always said I was a Single Married Father because I always took care of my son and she did next to nothing . While she was in California I never got a dime of child support . After finally getting my divorce settled back in December she now has a job but doesn’t have to pay me a dime of child support and no payments of owed child support . I had to pay lawyer fees of mine and her’s due to the judge’s ruling which I had to get a loan from my 401k to pay and I have to pay Alimony for 9 years since we were married for 18 years Nevada makes you pay for half the time . My son has a year and a half left of school . You think they would have at least made her pay child support for that long . If it would have been the other way around I am sure I would have been paying up the ying yang . My son and I are happy it is finally finished , but it was an unfair process . I was lucky that because of his age the child can decide who he wants to be with and since I was the one always there for him of course he wanted to be with his Daddy . I love him very much and we are a team .

  • Kimberly Miller Rupert

    I am an ex-wife who is required to pay child support to a useless boy for my now two children. It started out as four and even though two have since been emancipated, the amount remains the same(supposedly due to new guidelines). I have been threatened with jail and having my driver’s license suspended for not being able to make the total amount every month. Mine is another case like Mr. Cameron’s where the incompetence and gullibility of the legal system and associated parties allow this man to keep kids he in no way supports. He has never held a job for more than two months in his entire life, he collects disability payments for one adult child and one of the minors. He has the other minor in therapy, I imagine to have her declared mentally ill in some way so he can collect for her also. The other two, btw, have ADHD. That’s it. He gets government assistance for food, medical, etc. He gets child support from me. He lives off his girlfriend who works and pays all the bills while he does nothing but buy guns, computers, and phones. I am in school working toward my RN, trying to better myself while he sits back and salivates over the prospect of getting 50% of my paycheck when I start working. I have brought these things to the attention of Child Support Enforcement and was told, “You made these kids, you need to support them.” I also have not seen my kids for over a year since he moved them out of state. He wouldn’t let me see them when they were local either. I took him to court numerous times for contempt of our visitation order to have my petitions denied again and again with no reason given. I was however, told that visits have nothing to do with child support. The system is broken and needs a serious overhaul starting with making both parents responsible for the financial well being of their kids rather than placing the whole burden on the absent one. There needs to be some accountability…

    • Dena Campbell

      Why have you not gone to court to reduce your support and what were the terms of visitation? I don’t think he could cross State lines without your permission. Get a lawyer.

      • Kimberly Miller Rupert

        I have but the court says it’s the lowest they can do for someone who is unemployed and he lies about his living situation and income. I can’t prove it so…He is allowed to cross lines which makes things more difficult to enforce. I recently refilled for custody and was granted a default because he failed to respond. All I had to was get to my hearing and I would have had my kids back. He had an attorney show and instead of the custody issue, she had it all thrown out based on lack of jurisdiction because he lives in a different state. Now I have to travel to his local court and refile in his state. I’m told though that that state isn’t going to rule and void the order set in MD so no one will take jurisdiction! I feel that’s why he moved in the first place. I can’t afford a lawyer anymore.

        • Dena Campbell

          Usually the courts don’t take words for evidence, they ask for documents and financial records to determine an amount to be awarded. Seems pretty evasive for his lawyer to whine about jurisdiction when YOU are in that State and it was YOUR case. If you pay child support then he has to deliver the kids to you. Otherwise, he breached the visitation terms. Your rights have been violated and you can sue. Lawyers work on contingence and there should be someone who could help you. You need to file an appeal.

  • Angel Dunn

    I don’t think men get treated fair at all my best friend got his wife pregnant she lied both times saying she was on bc she was using old patches she tracked her ovulation and poked holes in the condoms when she told him she was pregnant he said he wanyed to have an abortion due to his job he barely spent any time with there first and didn’t want a second child not to mention how she got pregnant wirh said second child let alone the first he is now getting a divorce but she’s trying to tell him how much he has to give her and where he cqn and can’t go she is neglectful and screams and yells at the kids all the time and not to mention what she says about them in front of them and he’s deff going for ull custody but sadly most judges always go for the mother even whem the mother isn’t what’s best for the child So to all you men that have been wronged by money grubbing women I’m sorry

    • Dena Campbell

      there are also cases where the man gets full custody and the mom has to pay child support. Since your friend is the one who wants the divorce why should he not pay?

  • Patrick McMillen

    If a man has sex with a lady without precautions taken by him, then he needs to be responsible for the outcome, that even includes her saying she’s on the pill or any other thing women use these days. That being said, the current system of deciding who gets custody, and how much is paid, is 100% against men and geared towards the woman, this is what needs fixed, not who’s responsible between a man and woman having sex, both said yes period. I pay child support for my children and have never shy’d from that responsibility. What i don’t like is watching my payments kick in after the divorce and seeing her sport a new car a week later. There has to be true accountability of where the money goes to justify the amounts that many men are paying. I have step children living with me now, while I still pay support for my children and it’s a kick in the butt because we receive no support for my step children, however I can honestly say that when i look at what it cost me to support my step children monthly, it does not come nowhere near what I send to my kids, considering I also medically ensure my kids on top of the child support I send. Women must be held as financially responsible as men are, part of the problem today is that support laws are archaic in that they were created way before woman’s rights were advanced and they became just as employable as men. Now a lady has equal ability to work and provide just like the man, and the child support laws need to be changed to reflect that change along with the society were in today instead of the 60’s and 70’s era when they were made.

    • KevinJ

      “If a man has sex with a lady without precautions taken by him, then he needs to be responsible for the outcome, that even includes her saying she’s on the pill or any other thing women use these days. ” So you’re saying men are contractually responsible, even if the other party in the contract might have been negligent or dishonest. That’s bullshit. I am not arguing against a man’s moral responsibility to a child that he brings into this world… that’s a wholly different thing than court mandated financial responsibility (unevenly levied at that) with no regard for the circumstances that lead to the child being conceived.

      • Dena Campbell

        HOW a child is conceived is moot. You cannot make your child pay for your actions. That is sadly selfish.

        • KevinJ

          Having sex without the intent of conception is “selfish” to begin with. “Selfish” is not an evil word. Not accepting responsibilty for a child you create is immoral, of course. But that doesnt mean you can discard the premise of equal protection under the law for both men and women.

          The bottom line is, in today’s world wirh every form of birth control freely available to a woman there is simply zero excuse for an unwanted pregnancy. The law states that women are 100% the masters of their bodies. They need to accept responsibilty likewise. Simply going after men in every case for financial responsibilty because “thats where the money is” , is nothing more than a complete aquittal of the woman’s ultimate responsibilty for getting pregant. She decides when where and how often sex occurs. She decides what kinds of contraception are employed. She decides if she will keep the baby. And then you want her to have favoritism in the courts with regards to custody and child support???

          I am not debating the moral obligation of the father. I am questioning the GROSS disparity with regards to the legal rights and responsibilities between the mother and the father.

          • Dena Campbell

            To deny a child you may have fathered is selfish and THAT is the worst kind of selfish any parent could be branded. To deny a child of the living expenses he or she needs in order to grow and be sustained simply because you don’t won’t to wrap mr. dick in a raincoat is the ultimate betrayal a parent could impose on his child. After all, it was mr. dick who did the shooting, not the mother. THAT is where your selfish and irresponsible juvenile mentality is. Many women don’t want to get pregnant but it happens. When it does, be a grown man and take care of your child’s needs. That said, abortion is unnatural and an embryo is NOT part of a woman’s body. She wasn’t born with it and therefore it is NOT up to her or anyone else to murder a child and that child IS alive. Nothing dead can grow and embryos grow, My sympathy is for the father in that situation and he has every right to that child unborn. Our society is decayed and the laws of nature are violated by our whims and selfish wants and by Governments’ allowance of unnatural abortions of another human being. The greatest right a person could ever have is the right to be born. Not all women are fit to be mothers and in those cases, when the father is, then he should have custody. But not all fathers want custody, though it would protect their child.

    • Dena Campbell

      Why don’t you take your stepchildrens’ dad to court for child support?

  • SimJim

    Here’s the thing…dads, fight like hell to change a system that disregards fathers as nothing more than money dispensers. Protest, complain, vote…whatever you can do to fix the system than harms so many children. I did it for years. Paid child support to a lunatic for 17 years. I’ve felt the pain. BUT, no matter how evil the system is…no matter how badly you’ve been treated…if at all possible do whatever it takes to keep or reestablish a meaningful parental role.

    For me this meant ignoring my ex’s craziness. It meant learning to bite my tongue over and over and over. It meant waiting in my car for ten minutes, twenty minutes, 1 hour…just waiting for her to show up. Months of minutes thrown away because mommy is a nutcase.

    In the end, I was able to go from the court imposed every other weekend parent to a shared parenting role where my kids had me in their lives as much as they had their crazy mom. Instead of fighting my ex I manipulated her. I paid the extortion on time…I took advantage of her weaknesses…I was ready to take the kids at the first complaint of “stress”.

    Fight…be mad…but if you can figure out how to remain a parent bypassing the system, than don’t overlook this possibility. As infuriating as it is to get kicked out of a meaningful parental role…make it a mission to do whatever it takes to get back in there and parent.

    • Dena Campbell

      Well said and congratulations.

  • Steve Payne

    Women are a reflection of men. Men are the moral head of the world.
    I didn’t say “men are more moral than women,” I’m trying to say the morale of the world is the man’s responsibility.
    That’s just the way it is. If you want to see fewer single parents, MEN have to make the first move.

  • Lenny Schafer

    Fill ‘er Up?

    If I own a gas station, am I partly responsible for all my customer’s automobile accidents? Isn’t the decision to put gas into the car mutually made freely by both parties. By putting gas into that car, aren’t I equally responsible for the accidents that might later come along? So if a man mutually agrees with a woman to provide her and her body with sperm, isn’t he equally responsible for what she later does with it and her body? Do we need to pass a law that makes gasoline station owners pay for automobile accidents? (and no, I am not calling babies automobile accidents. Its called an analogy).

    • Dena Campbell

      Putting gas into a car does not an accident make.

    • Agent9999

      if men dont have any responsibilities then I doubt a woman would agree to accept his sperm into her body. She would agree to penis insertion and thrusting, but no sperm deposit. If you want to disect all the aspects of sex and have no responsibility for the whole act, then women will make adjustments as well.

  • gabriel314

    Child support should be eliminated. Perhaps then, the natural order of things will be restored and women will stop reproducing with deadbeats, which just produces more deadbeats.

    • Dena Campbell

      How the hell does a woman know that she married a deadbeat who left her? The natural order of things is for couples to marry and raise their child together. You advocate men should stop paying child support then you call him a deadbeat.

      • gabriel314

        It takes some effort to figure out a person’s character, and there are signs that a person is a deadbeat/dirtbag prior to marriage.

        Put the work in on the front end, and the end results will be much better. There are exceptions (sociopaths), but if a woman is educated about them, she can figure it out and make a better choice.

        • Dena Campbell

          So when a husband changes and becomes disinterested and selfish and wants to leave 10 years into marriage, she’s supposed to know this?

          • gabriel314

            People don’t really change that much unless they’ve had a brain injury. And every woman should have a back-up plan–especially if they have children. My husband’s shaping up to be a decent husband/father, but if he turns, I’m outta here and I have everything I need in place. I’m no victim, and I don’t need to rely on anyone else to take care of me or my child.

            Cynical, yes. Likely to happen, probably not.

          • Dena Campbell

            Reality, marriages bust up all the time because one or both get bored, wants more freedom, loses interest, fight over money… any reason but it does not take a brain injury for people to want to leave the marriage. But when a mother leaves and does not ask for support for their children from the father that is robbing the children of their birthright and makes victims of them.

  • Swivelgames

    I often think about this… If men had the same weight in the decisions made, then I could understand. But since they don’t, it doesn’t make sense that a woman should be able to steal money from the man just because they want to make a decision contrary to the male’s preference. This argument, of course, only applies to a society that allows women the right to murder their child prior to extraction. Again, if the woman has the right, but the male does not, why is the male stuck with the same amount of responsibility? If the woman has the right to get out of having him or her, then why doesn’t the male have the same right to get out of his responsibility for his child? The woman can but the male can’t?

    • Dena Campbell

      Learn to discern. A woman has to take care of the child, make sure they are clothed, fed, bathed, schooled, and maintained while daddy gets to do what he wants and not wake up in the middle of the night to feed and comfort the baby. No, he is most of the time out screwing other women while mama takes care of the kids. He is out doing things with his buddies while mama is losing sleep caring for a screaming baby with colic. There are those in reverse roles, when daddy takes care of baby while mama is out doing her thing and SHE is paying child support but it is naturally a man’s responsibility to take care of his kids even when it is only financially.

      • Swivelgames

        This isn’t talking about whether or not a father or mother should be required to pay child support in every situation. This is talking about a very specific scenario; You’re missing the whole argument, which I’ll get to in a moment.

        The reality is that there are deadbeat fathers, and there are deadbeat mothers, but that’s actually not the majority of the child support cases. What the hell do you think I do all day or night? Dick around? A man doesn’t have to take care of the child, make sure they are clothed, fed, bathed, schooled, and maintained? And a woman doesn’t get to do what they want? Father’s don’t wake up in the middle of the night? You’re damn right I’m financially responsible for my family, but that doesn’t mean I don’t contribute every second of every minute I’m home and available. I’m the one who wakes up in the middle of the night, who clothes, feeds, bathes, and schools my children when I’m home. That’s certainly not to denounce the incredible amount of work that my wife does, but be careful not to sound too ignorant.

        On to the argument that everyone’s talking about here… We’re talking about a situation in which the baby has not been born yet.

        In the realm of equality, the mother has the right to say whether or not the pregnancy continues; the father does not have any say in that, but he has the same level of responsibility.

        If the mother doesn’t want the child, she can simply abort it. If the father doesn’t want the child, he’s shit out of luck and will be required by law to pay the mother because *she* wanted to keep it.

        As soon as you throw abortion into the mix it changes the whole scenario. All of a sudden you’ve granted the mother a right to opt-out of the situation within the first five months, but you haven’t given the father that same right.

        If the mother doesn’t have a legal responsibility to oblige a father’s request for an abortion, the father does not have any legal avenue to relinquish his responsibility for the child within the first five months of the pregnancy. The mother, of course, does.

    • Agent9999

      In regards to reproduction and gender we currently treat men and women the same. We expect both to protect their gametes from fertilization. If either of them fail to do so, they are jointly responsible. Neither is more responsible than the other. Since a woman’s gamete is in her body longer, she has a longer time to make her final choice about removing it. But they each make their own choice independent of the other. If a child is born, they each have an equal responsibility towards the child. And both men and women have the same access to medical treatment to remove unwanted tissue.

      Currently society deems this “same treatment” towards abortion/reproduction as fair.

      ‘Financial abortion for men’ is about equal number of choices after conception (“equal treatment”). You want each gender to get one choice after conception. The problem I see is that this gives the man an extra choice, as he already made his choice while his gametes were in his control, now he wants a “do-over”. His choice also involves the female’s gamete (as they have bonded together, fertilization). Now his choice to remove his gamete effects her gamete and involves only her body. He wants to make a choice that she is responsible for carrying out. This now assigns her responsibility for both gametes, and him no responsibility for his gamete.

      You will have to convince society that this “equal treatment” of genders
      based on post-conception choice is better than “same treatment” that we currently use. I don’t think it will be possible.

      • Janet Wilkinson

        Sorry thats complete bollocks, if a man and a woman have sex and they make a mistake and a pregnancy happens then it should give both parties to walk away from that without any consequences. Currently that does not happen. The woman can have an abortion (her way out) where as a man is fucked and can not force her to have an abortion and regardless of what he wants if she then decides to have that child its HIM that has to keep paying for it. Sorry but any idea that any part of that scenario is fair and equal is complete and utter bollocks.

        • HandsOffMyUterus

          Yup.

  • TrollBaby

    Forget all this, my question is did you hear about how Palin aborted her love child with NBA star Glenn Rice??? According to reports Sarah got her wombshifted by Glenn’s mandingo meat just enough to drop his babies off in her fallopian tube. We all know that conservatives are a very accepting people, a retarded baby, no problem….but a mulatto baby, now that’s a bridge too far. Just think about what the Duck Dynasty dudes would have said???

    • Dena Campbell

      You’re a miserable disgusting scum. Don’t get out much do you, you sick twisted excuse of pukewad.

      • TrollBaby

        Lol! Sounds like you mad ma? Why don’t you tell me more about it?

    • HandsOffMyUterus

      LOLOLOLOLOLOL!! OMG—LOVE it!! ROFLMAO. The more ya’ know….. XD

  • FAKIA

    I’d say that from a Libertarian perspective it’s pretty straight forward. The act of sex does not equal consent to raise a child. Where a husband has paternal rights, a “baby daddy” essentially has none. If there is no demonstrable consent to fatherhood, a prospective baby daddy should have the same option the mother has. He should be able to either abort, or surrender responsibility for the fetus to another. If he surrenders responsibility to the mother, he should lose all parental rights, but also be absolved of financial responsibility.

    The only exception I can think of is a case of rape. Rapists who impregnate people should pay.

    Most importantly, a baby daddy who wants to raise a child should have parental rights independent of marriage. It is sexist in the extreme to allow the female full parental rights irrespective of marital status while depriving the male of the same.

  • Agent9999

    Most mothers I know only recieve a small amount of child support, it doesnt cover half the cost of raising the child. Having a child out of wedlock puts women in a poor financial position. The e-cards above about women living off child support are not accurate of most situations. However, I am in favor of alternate child support options, but I don’t support shifting all responsibility to women and none to men.

  • KevinJ

    The right to self determination is a core ideal in Libertarianism. Whether you agree with the decision or not, Roe vs Wade basically says that a woman’s right to self determination, trumps any conflicting right to life of the unborn, and any right to fatherhood of the man.

    No man can force a woman to accept the responsibility of a child that she doesn’t want.

    Equal protection under the law is also a core ideal of Libertarianism. All people should be subject to the same laws with the same jurisprudence applied. However, given the application of today’s child custody laws, men do not enjoy equal protection.

    A woman can in fact, force upon a man the legal responsibility of a child that he does not want.

    Fire away, Hypocrites.

  • Agent9999

    If you are concerned about families not having any incentive to stay intact
    or concerned about the amount of child support fathers pay to mothers, there are
    many ways to remedy this without a financial opt out for fathers – which would
    be impossible to implement, and I think would achieve the opposite of what you
    want.

    Have fathers qualify just as easily for government support, full custody or
    shared custody. Make a 50/50 the default without any child support paid to a
    parent, or implement a minimum child support based on bare necessities and
    anything a parent wants to contribute above that be voluntary.

    Out of curiosity, if a father signs an opt out,but still forms a
    relationship with the child, then what? A father would be crazy to sign for
    paternity because he already has everything in his favor. He’s getting
    everything for free, and once the child turns 18, the father
    is scot-free.

    I think what you are proposing will push willing fathers away. They’ll
    sneak in a relationship as best they can while the child is young. Show up for
    sports and birthdays and such and will wait it out until the kid is a teen.

  • Kingcent

    “Should men be exempt from paying child support?”
    No they should not and while I feel for Seamus’s story (his version of events), men should not be exempt from paying child support. The courts rule in the best interest of the child and this means the child receives financial support from their parents. The courts don’t get into ‘whether or not someone wants to pay child support or not’.
    And for men who don’t want to take responsibility of creating a baby by solely blaming women for getting pregnant, then get a vasectomy that way you never have to worry about an accidental pregnancy. Every man screwing knows how babies are made. It’s your sperm and your responsibility for where that sperm goes. If you have bareback sex with a woman and ejaculate into a fertile womb then you are willingly taking a risk and playing Russian Roulette with your sperm. If you don’t want a woman to have that kind of power over your potential offspring then it’s your sole responsibility to insure that you keep your sperm out of potentially fertile wombs, and only ejaculate into a womb when you are ready to become a daddy.

    • HandsOffMyUterus

      It’s a bullshit law.

  • JustEric

    In the interest of full disclosure: I am a divorced male actively paying child support. I am divorced because my ex-wife couldn’t “keep it in her pants” (to borrow a more polite term usually reserved for men).

    Here’s my take on it. I have no problem with child support, but there need to be some changes to the system:

    – All states need to switch to an at-fault divorce system (for married couples); if you commit adultery, are an abuser, etc., you get NOTHING. You don’t get the children. You don’t get money. You get to go live your pathetic life broke and alone like you deserve to.

    – Child support needs to be enforced as being FOR THE CHILDREN. There needs to be an audit system in place that the paying parent (I won’t specify father or mother, because this is likely a gender-neutral issue) can enact if they suspect–or even know–that the money is going to things that have nothing to do with the children. If you’re found to be spending the money on partying, lavish trips, etc. you lose the money and/or the kids.

    – When it comes to unwanted pregnancies, there needs to be some sort of system where an “expectant” father can request an abortion, and the expectant mother CAN decline the request (we’re not talking about forcing abortions here), but doing so absolves the father of any financial liability. This levels the playing field of reproductive rights and gives men just as much choice as women.

    – There needs to be some leniency from the courts on making the payments. If something comes up (car repairs, medical expenses, etc.), and the paying parent can PROVE to the courts that they need to temporarily need to redirect funds elsewhere, this should be allowed. I can’t speak for other states, but in MA, you pay the amount dictated by the judge, and not a penny less; the ONLY excuse accepted by the courts is involuntary loss of employment. Failure to pay every time, on time results in imprisonment.

    My ex-wife cheated on me. We agreed to end the marriage. She got to keep the kids, and I get to cut her four-figure checks every month. My kids walk around in rags, while my ex-wife takes trips to Europe, goes out partying, and gets shitty, trashy tattoos. I have tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills going unpaid, because if I miss a payment to her, my ass is going to prison. I have ZERO recourse. I can’t complain to the courts that she’s misappropriating funds. As long as the kids are fed and sheltered, she’s in the clear.

    How is ANY of this fair? How is ANY of this just? How is ANY of this good for my children? How does the state have the right to do this to my family?

    The system is broken. It needs to be fixed NOW.

    • HandsOffMyUterus

      -” When it comes to unwanted pregnancies, there needs to be some sort of system where an “expectant” father can request an abortion, and the expectant mother CAN decline the request (we’re not talking about forcing abortions here), but doing so absolves the father of any financial liability. This levels the playing field of reproductive rights and gives men just as much choice as women.” ABSOLUTELY. Best response on this subject I’ve heard so far. Makes total sense.

  • Janet Wilkinson

    Sorry that’s complete bollocks, if a man and a woman have sex and they make a mistake and a pregnancy happens then it should give both parties to walk away from that without any consequences. Currently that does not happen. The woman can have an abortion (her way out) where as a man is fucked and can not force her to have an abortion and regardless of what he wants if she then decides to have that child its HIM that has to keep paying for it. Sorry but any idea that any part of that scenario is fair and equal is complete and utter bollocks.

    And to be perfectly clear this happens a LOT. This idiotic trap that women deploy to just have a baby, or to collect child benefit from the man.

    Its time men had a get out clause from the pregnancy as well. Especially when you have women intentionally lying about being on the pill.

    • HandsOffMyUterus

      Yup. Women have the right to have an abortion or keep the kid; the man should have equal options as well to NOT have to pay if he DOESN’T want it. If she wants it even though it’s clear that he wants no part of it, then she needs to accept that fact and deal with it herself, i.e. foot the bill if she insists on keeping it. Her decision—her responsibility.

  • Arianne Swenson

    I used to think this was a man’s world… until I got with my now husband, who has three kids with a sorry excuse of a woman. The state wants to extort $207 dollars a week for her. We’re not sure if thats what shes getting… but thats what they take. After the split, she did get left with property and two houses on it, so shes not on the street. She will need assistance with food and insurance still, but its a hell of a bettter place than my father left me, or even how my husbands father left him. But, if thats the way it is, fine. Our problem is the percentage that they “feel” she “deserves”, regardless of the massive debt she racked up for him, or her own income. Its putting us closer to needing assistance too. I also feel like society says “well, if you dont like it then you should have worn a condom”, but however if there were to be a biased system against women in a similar manner (extortion), no one would tell her “if you dont like it , you shouldnt have done it” … Its a gross double standard, and even as a woman it makes it extremely hard to be supportive for anymore womens rights. They already have more rights than men. If the father cant have rights to the fetus, why should he pay? I also see a lot of “Libertarians” who feel aborting is murder, furthering men from having rights at all. I’m scared for our future.

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